‘You don’t know anything about me!’: BBC Radio 4 host Justin Webb in clash with Pink News CEO

2

View
comments

Radio4 presenter Justin Webb furiously clashed with the CEO of a LGBTQ+ publication this morning during a debate on transgender rights, telling him ‘you don’t know anything about me’. 

Benjamin Cohen, CEO of PinkNews, was invited onto the Today Programme to discuss what Webb described as the charity Stonewall’s attempts to ‘abolish legal provisions for same-sex spaces’ – a move opposed by some women’s rights groups.

However Mr Cohen – who spoke alongside Simon Fanshawe, co-founder and former member of Stonewall – highlighted the fact that the BBC had failed to include ‘a single trans voice’ in the debate on transgender rights, instead having two gay male cisgendered guests on to speak.

The PinkNews CEO also said that Webb was incorrectly claiming that Stonewall intended to make all single-sex spaces accessible to anyone who ‘self ID’d’ as a woman or man. 

After being asked whether if was ‘perfectly acceptable’ for women to campaign for single-sex spaces not to include those who have changed gender, Mr Cohen initially refused to answer the question, telling Webb: ‘The BBC has decided to have a debate with two different gay people talking about trans issues, and it’s quite odd.

‘I’m a cisgender man, I’m not transgender. Simon is also not transgender. You’re not transgender. So, once again it’s a debate about trans issues about a single trans voice being heard.’  

Webb then hit back: ‘Number one, you don’t know anything about me. Number two, I asked you a question would you answer it.’. 

Mr Cohen continued: ‘You made the statement which is that the provisions around who gets access to single sex Spaces has changed. That hasn’t changed. The Equality Act was passed in 2010, there’s been no changes to that.’ 

Webb replied: ‘What I’m suggesting is Stonewall would like to change it. And a lot of women are worried about that.’

To which Mr Cohen said: ‘You just claimed that, but that’s not actually true. So Stonewall supports self ID, which is simply about paperwork. So you’ve been able to self ID for practical purposes for the Equality Act since 2010, that’s 11 years ago.’ 

When asked if safe spaces for women such as women’s refuges were ‘protected’ in Stonewall’s campaign, Mr Cohen said they ‘continue to be protected’ and said he didn’t believe Stonewall had said ‘that those spaces should be open to trans people.’

Stonewall states on it’s website that it recommended to the government’s Women and Equalities Select Committee on Transgender Equality in August 2015: ‘A review of the Equality Act 2010 to include ‘gender identity’ rather than ‘gender reassignment’ as a protected characteristic and to remove exemptions, such as access to single-sex spaces.’

During today’s three minute discussion Mr Cohen and presenter Webb continually interrupted each other – with listeners taking to social media to criticise both Webb and the guest’s approach.

Actress Kathy Burke tweeted: ‘If you’re told that you should include a trans person when discussing trans rights you shouldn’t get the hump about it.’  

Whilst campaign group Women’s Place UK tweeted: ‘Benjamin Cohen CEO P*nk News claims it is untrue that the organisation is campaigning for the removal of the single sex exemptions in the Equality Act… It is.’ 

The car-crash interview comes as the LGBTQ+ rights group Stonewall is facing a Whitehall exodus from its diversity scheme amid concerns over its ‘extreme’ stance on transgender rights.

Government departments, led by the Ministry of Justice, are beginning to question the ‘value for money’ of belonging to a league table of employers which is compiled by the lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans charity.

Robert Buckland, the Justice Secretary and Lord Chancellor, is understood to be preparing to withdraw his department from the scheme.

Critics of the equality group say its pronouncements on trans issues are anti-free speech.

Last week it emerged Stonewall had advised organisations to boost their rankings on its equality ratings table by replacing the term ‘mother’ with ‘parent who has given birth’.

It also tells member organisations that those who self-identify as women must be allowed to use female lavatories and changing rooms, a stance that has angered some feminists.

‘It’s a shame, as this was once an organisation that did incredibly important work, but it has totally lost its way and the ministers just don’t think it’s justifiable to give Stonewall taxpayers’ money,’ an MoJ source told the Sunday Telegraph.

‘The department will be just as welcoming to LGBT people as before, but we really shouldn’t be paying thousands of pounds for controversial advice about pronouns and gender-neutral spaces.’

The source predicted the MoJ would be the first in an ‘exodus’ of Government departments.

Several organisations, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the employment dispute service Acas, have pulled out of Stonewall’s Diversity Champions scheme blaming cost reasons. On Friday it emerged that Channel 4 had also withdrawn.

The Stonewall scheme has 250 Government departments and public bodies among its members. They pay thousands of pounds for guidance and are ranked on the charity’s Workplace Equality Index for their ‘progress on lesbian, gay, bi and trans inclusion in the workplace’.

‘It has totally lost its way’